[TMG] Debate, Not Degrade (Re: [TMG] fwd from nation blog)

[supat at supat.eu.org]

On Mon, 22 Sep 2008, Angkut Roongsaengjan wrote:

> ÔÂÔ¹´ÕáÅТÍ͹ØâÁ·¹Ò (ÃèÇÁÂÔ¹´Õ) ¡Ñºà¨µ¹ÒáÅФÇÒÁ¤Ô´àË繢ͧËÁ͹Ãù¤ÃѺ
>
> ¹éÓ
> »Å. ¼Á¤§µéͧà¢Õ¹º·¤ÇÒÁà¾ÔèÁàµÔÁ¨Ò¡ ºÑ¹·Ö¡ã¹Çѹ·ÕèÍÖ´ÍÑ´ à¾×èÍ͸ԺÒÂÇèÒ ¤¹·Õè¡ÓÅѧⴹ Caught in the middle ÍÖ´ÍÑ´ÍÂèÒ§äáѺ¡Ò÷Õè¶Ù¡·Ñé§Êͧ½èÒ»ÃгÒÁ·ÕèäÁèàÅ×Í¡¢éÒ§

From info I have, ZERO NPK blame "KLANG KLOUNG" persons.
Because to define as neutral is benefit to NPK and neutral itself.

regards,
zxc555


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nawanan Theera-Ampornpunt <nawanan.rama at gmail.com>
> Sent: 21 ¡Ñ¹ÂÒ¹ 2551 12:56
> To: Thai Mailing Group <thai-l at thai-l.net>
> Subject: Re: [TMG] Debate, Not Degrade (Re: [TMG] fwd from nation blog)
>
> ¼Áà¾Ô觡ÅѺà¢éÒÁÒ join ä´éÃèÇÁÊÑ»´ÒËìàͧ¤ÃѺ
> äÁèá¹èã¨ÇèÒËÅØ´»ÃÐà´ç¹ÍÐä÷Õè¤Ø³ÊѹµÔ¾Ù´¶Ö§ÍÐäÃ仺éÒ§ËÃ×Íà»ÅèÒ :)
>
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>
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> áÅÐÂÔ¹´ÕÃѺ¿Ñ§ (ËÃ×ÍÍÒ¨¨Ðà¶Õ§ã¹àªÔ§ËÅÑ¡¡ÒÃËÃ×Íà˵ؼÅ) â´Â focus
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> ¤¹·ÕèàËç¹äÁèàËÁ×͹àÃÒ) à¾×èÍãËéàÃÒ·Ñé§ËÁ´ (as a whole) àÃÕ¹ÃÙéä»´éÇ¡ѹ áÅÐ "©ÅÒ´¢Öé¹"
> ·Ø¡¤¹¤ÃѺ áÅÐã¹·éÒ·ÕèÊØ´áÅéÇ ¾Ç¡àÃÒ·Ø¡¤¹¡çà»ç¹ members ¢Í§ community áË觹ÕéàËÁ×͹æ
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> äÁèÇèÒ¨ÐÁÕ IQ ÁÒ¡à¾Õ§㴠¡çäÁèÁÕ·Ò§ "©ÅÒ´" (wise) ¢Öé¹ ËÃ×Íà¡è§¢Öé¹ä´éËÃÍ¡¤ÃѺ
> à¾ÃÒÐà¢ÒäÁèÃÙé¨Ñ¡ life-long learning áÅÐäÁèÁÕ self-improvement attitude ÍÒ¨¨Ð
> cliche ä»Ë¹èÍ áµè·Ø¡¤¹µéͧ·ÓµÑÇà»ç¹âÍ觷ÕèÂѧÁÕ¹éÓäÁèàµçÁ¤ÃѺ ¼Áàͧ¡çÂѧäÁè¶Ö§à»éÒËÁÒ¹Ñé¹
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> ÁÒ¡¡ÇèÒ¤¹Í×è¹Ë¹èÍÂ.....ËÁÒÂà˵ØÊÑé¹æ ÇèÒ¼ÁËÁÒ¶֧ µÑǼÁàͧ áÅÐËÁÍÊèǹãË­è¹Ð¤ÃѺ äÁèãªè
> individual) áµèËÒ¡·Ø¡¤¹¾ÂÒÂÒÁ·Õè¨ÐÅ´ ego ¢Í§µ¹Å§ ÊÔ觷Õè¨ÐµÒÁÁÒ ¤×Í societal
> benefit ¤ÃѺ
>
> ¼ÁàͧËÒÂ˹éÒ仹ҹ áÅÐäÁèä´é·ÃÒº¤ÇÒÁà»ç¹ä»¢Í§ ¡Á·. ÁÒ 4-5 »ÕàµçÁ
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> áÅÐä´é observe ¤ÇÒÁà»ç¹ä»ªèǧÊÑé¹æ ·ÓãËé¼Áä´é perspective ·Ñé§ã¹°Ò¹Ð¤¹¹Í¡
> áÅÐã¹°Ò¹ÐÊÁÒªÔ¡à¡èÒ áÅÐ sense of community
> ¢Í§¼Á·ÓãËé¼ÁÍÂÒ¡¨ÐáÊ´§¤ÇÒÁàËç¹ÍÂèÒ§¢éÒ§µé¹ ºÒ§·èÒ¹ÍÒ¨¨ÐÃÙéÊÖ¡ÇèÒ¤è͹¢éÒ§ strong
> ¢ÍãËéÁͧà¾Õ§ÇèÒ¼Á㹰ҹмÙé¹éÍ ¢ÍÊСԴàµ×͹·Ø¡·èÒ¹ÅСѹ¤ÃѺ Êèǹã¤Ã¨ÐÃѺäÁèÃѺ¡çÊØ´áÅéÇáµè
> áÅмÁ¡çäÁèÁÕÍÐäèÐàÊÕ ËÒ¡ ¡Á·. ¡ÓÅѧÁØè§Ë¹éÒŧà¢Ò¤ÃѺ....ÍÂèÒ§ÁÒ¡¼Á¡ç
> unsubscribe....¤Ó¶ÒÁ·Õè¼ÁÍÂÒ¡¨ÐÊСԴãËé·Ø¡·èÒ¹¤Ô´¡ç¤×Í Would you lose anything if
> the heart of TMG as originally envisioned (and as has been established
> over the years) had been lost?
>
> ·Ø¡¤¹ÁÕÊèǹªèÇ shape ãËé TMG ´Õ¢Öé¹ áÂèŧ ËÃ×ͤ§à´ÔÁ¤ÃѺ...Please do your part...
>
> ¹Ç¹Ãù
>
> Sunti Kit wrote:
>> ¢Í¢Íº¤Ø³ËÁ͹ǹÃó·ÕèãËé¢éͤԴ¡Ñº¾Ç¡¹éÒæáÅÐÅا ÃÇÁ¶Ö§»éÒæáÅÐÍÒæ´éÇ 㹡Ò÷ÕèàÃÒ¾Ù´¡Ñ¹ÍÂÙèã¹Ëéͧ¹Õé ¼Á¤Ô´ÇèÒµÑǼÁàͧ¡çà»ç¹¤¹¨Ø´»ÃСÒÂ(à¾ÅÔ§)´éÇ¡Ò÷Õèà¢Õ¹ÀÒÉÒ·ÕèÍèÒ¹áÅéÇäÁè¤èͨÐà¢éÒ㨠ÍÂèÒ¾Ù´¶Ö§¡ÒÃà¢Õ¹ÀÒÉһСԴáÅéÇ·ÓãË餹Í×è¹ÊÐà·×͹㨠㹤ÃÑ駹Ñé¹¼Áà¢Õ¹ÇèÒ·ÓäÁµéͧÁÒãËéÅÙ¡à¨ç¡ÅÙ¡¨Õ¹ÍÍ¡ÁÒ»¡»éͧªÒµÔ ¼ÁäÁèä´éà¢Õ¹ÇèÒ¤Ó¾Ù´¹Õéà»ç¹¢Í§Ê¹¸Ô àŤÓàËÅèÒ¹Õé¡ÅÒÂÁÒà»ç¹¤Ó¾Ù´¢Í§¼ÁáÅзÓãËé¡ÅѺ¡ÅÒÂà»ç¹áºè§á¡àª×éÍªÒµÔ ¼Áä´é¾Ù´áÅéÇÇèÒà¶Õ§¡Ñ¹´éÇÂà˵ØáÅмŴաÇèÒ·Õè¨Ð·ÐàÅÒСѹẺäÁè¿Ñ§ã¤Ã á¶ÁÂѧáͺÍéÒ§¤Ó¾Ù´Í×è¹æ·Õèà¢Õ¹áÅéÇãËéÍèÒ¹áÅФԴä»ÍաẺ µÑÇÍÂèÒ§¹Ð¤ÃѺ ¶éÒ¼Áà¢Õ¹ÇèÒ ÇÑ´ä·Âã¹´ÑÅÅÒÊ ä´éÃѺà§Ô¹Ê¹ÑºÊ¹Ø¹¨Ò¡¤¹ã¹Ãкº·Ñ¡ÉÔ³ ¼Á¤Ô´ÇèÒÁѹ¡çµéͧ¶Ù¡à¾ÃÒÐÁѹ¨ÐµéͧÁÕÊÑ¡¤¹·Õèà¤ÂºÃÔ¨Ò¡ªèÇÂÁÒáÅéÇ áµèÁѹ·ÓãË餹Í×蹤Դä»ÍաẺ˹Öè§ÍÂèÒ§äÁè¶Ù¡µéͧ ÍÂèÒ¾Ù´¤ÇÒÁ¨ÃÔ§¤ÃÖè§à´ÕÂÇ áÅФ¹Í×è¹äÁèÁÕâÍ¡ÒÈä´éá¡éµÑÇ㹤ӡÅèÒÇËÒ àªè¹áʧáÅÐà§ÒÍÂÙèàº×éͧËÅѧ¡ÒÃà¤Å×è͹äËǢͧ¾Ç¡ ¾¸Á ¼Á¿Ñ§áÅéÇÁѹÊÐà·×͹㨪ͺ¡Å·Ñé§áʧáÅÐà§ÒÁÕâÍ¡ÒÊá¡é¢éÍ¡ÅèÒÇËÒàËÅèÒ¹ÕéËÃ×Íà»ÅèÒ áµè¤¹·Õèä´éÍèÒ¹¡ç¤§¤Ô´ÇèÒà»ç¹¤ÇÒÁ¨ÃÔ§áÅоٴµèÍ仡ѹÃÒǡѺÇèÒÁѹà»ç¹¤Ç
> ÒÁ¨ÃÔ§·ÕèÂ×¹Âѹä´é
>> àÍÒÅФÃѺàÃÒ¤ÇþٴáÅÐâµéáÂ駡ѹ´éÇÂà˵ؼŠáÅÐÊÓËÃѺàÃ×èͧÇÑ´ã¹´ÑÅÅÒʹÑé¹à»ç¹á¤èµÑÇÍÂèÒ§¹Ð¤ÃѺÍÂèÒ¤Ô´ÇèÒà»ç¹¤ÇÒÁ¨ÃÔ§ áµèàÍ ËÃ×ÍÇèÒÁѹà»ç¹àÃ×èͧ¨ÃÔ§
>> ÊѹµÔ
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Nawanan Theera-Ampornpunt" <nawanan.rama at gmail.com>
>> To: "Thai Mailing Group" <thai-l at thai-l.net>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 10:13 AM
>> Subject: [TMG] Debate, Not Degrade (Re: [TMG] fwd from nation blog)
>>
>>
>>> ¢Íº¤Ø³¤ÃѺ
>>>
>>> àËç¹´éǤÃѺÇèÒ¤ÇÒÁ "à»ç¹¡ÅÒ§" (neutrality) à»ç¹ relative term
>>> ¨Ö§¢Öé¹ÍÂÙè¡ÑºÁØÁÁͧ¢Í§áµèÅФ¹ (subjective) áµè·Õè¼Á¡ÅèÒÇÇèÒ "in the middle" ¤×Í
>>> "caught in the middle" ¤×Í äÁèàËç¹´éÇÂáÅÐäÁèʹѺʹع·Ñé§Êͧ½èÒ ÁÒ¡¡ÇèÒ¤ÃѺ
>>> «Öè§äÁèä´é·ÓãËé¼Á "à»ç¹¡ÅÒ§" áµèà¾Õ§á¤èËÁÒ¤ÇÒÁÇèÒ¼ÁäÁèä´éÍÂÙè¢éҧ㴢éҧ˹Ö觤ÃѺ
>>> à¾ÃÒШشÂ×¹¢Í§·Ñé§Êͧ½Ñ觹Ñé¹ extreme (㹤ÇÒÁàËç¹¼Á) áÅÐ rigid
>>> à»ç¹¡ÒÃá¡é»Ñ­ËÒ·ÕèàÍҨشÂ×¹¢Í§µ¹ (position) à»ç¹µÑǵÑé§ ÁÒ¡¡ÇèÒàÍÒ mutual interest
>>> ¢Í§»ÃÐà·Èà»ç¹µÑǵÑé§ (¡ÓÅѧÍèҹ˹ѧÊ×Íà¡èÒá¡èáµèÂѧà»ç¹»Ñ¨¨ØºÑ¹ "Getting to Yes" ÍÂÙè¤ÃѺ:
>>> One of the principles of successful negotiation is to "focus on
>>> interests, not positions")
>>>
>>> ã¹ politics äÁèÇèҢͧ»ÃÐà·ÈËÃ×ÍÊѧ¤Áã´¡çµÒÁ ÊÔ觷Õè¤ÇèÐà»ç¹ËÅÑ¡¡Òþ×é¹°Ò¹¤×Í
>>> compromise for the greater goods ¤ÃѺ
>>> à¾ÃÒÐà»ç¹ä»äÁèä´é·Õè¨ÐËÒ¤¹Êͧ¤¹·ÕèÁÕ¤ÇÒÁàËç¹àËÁ×͹¡Ñ¹·Ø¡ÍÂèÒ§ ´Ñ§¹Ñé¹ ¤¹àÃÒ·Ø¡¤¹
>>> ¨Ö§µéͧà¤Òþã¹ÁØÁÁͧ¢Í§¤¹Í×è¹ áÅÐÃÙé¨Ñ¡ compromise (áÅÐËÂØ´ focus ·Õè position
>>> ÇèÒ·ÓäÁà¢ÒäÁèà¢éÒ¢éÒ§àÃÒ áµè¾ÂÒÂÒÁÁͧÇèÒ·ÓÍÂèÒ§ää¹·ÕèÂ×¹ÍÂÙ褹ÅШش¨ÐËѹ˹éÒà¢éÒËҡѹä´é
>>>
>>> á¹è¹Í¹ÇèÒ compromise ÂèÍÁäÁèãªèÊÔ觷Õèà¢éÒ·Ò§¢Í§áµèÅФ¹àÊÁÍä» ´Ñ§¹Ñé¹ ¤¹ÊèǹãË­è¨Ö§äÁèªÍº
>>> áµèÍÂèÒÅ×ÁÇèÒÊÔ觷ÕèÊӤѭÁÒ¡¡ÇèÒµÑÇàÃÒ (ÍѵµÒ) áÅмŻÃÐ⪹ì¢Í§àÃÒ ¤×Í
>>> ¼Å»ÃÐ⪹ì¢Í§ÊèǹÃÇÁ (public good) ¤ÃѺ
>>>
>>> ·Õè¼Á¾Ù´¶Ö§ compromise ¹Ñé¹ äÁèä´éËÁÒ¶֧½Ñ觾ѹ¸ÁÔµÃÍÂèÒ§à´ÕÂÇ áµèËÁÒ¶֧·Ø¡½èÒÂ
>>> ÃÑ°ºÒÅ¡çµéͧ·Ó˹éÒ·Õè¢Í§µ¹ (¤×Í´Ù`ÃÐ⪹ì¢Í§»ÃÐà·ÈªÒµÔ
>>> ¾Ô·Ñ¡ÉìÃÑ¡ÉÒàÊÒËÅÑ¡¢Í§ºéÒ¹àÁ×ͧ ËÂØ´»¡»éͧ¾Ãä¾Ç¡¢Í§µÑÇàͧ
>>> áÅеéͧÃÙé¨Ñ¡ËѹÁÒ´ÙáÅ»ÃЪҪ¹·Õè¡ÓÅѧà´×Í´Ãé͹àÊÕºéÒ§) ã¹¢³Ðà´ÕÂǡѹ ¾Ñ¹¸ÁÔµÃ
>>> ¡çµéͧÂÍÁÃѺÇèÒ ¡ÒáÃзӺҧÍÂèÒ§¹Ñé¹ ¼Ô´¡®ËÁÒ ÁÕÊèǹ·ÓãËéà¡Ô´¤ÇÒÁÃعáç (ÂéÓ¤ÓÇèÒ ÁÕÊèǹ
>>> ËÃ×Í "contribute" ¤ÃѺ äÁèãªè à»ç¹ÊÒà赯 ËÃ×Í "cause" äÁè§Ñé¹à´ÕëÂǨÐâ¨ÁµÕ¼ÁÍÕ¡)
>>> áÅÐÁÕÊèǹ·ÓãËéà¡Ô´¼ÅàÊÕµèÍàÈÃÉ°¡Ô¨áÅÐÀÒ¾Åѡɳì¢Í§»ÃÐà·È¤ÃѺ
>>>
>>> ÊÓËÃѺ argument ·ÕèÁÑ¡¨Ð¡¢Öé¹ÁÒÍéÒ§ÇèÒ ¨Óà»ç¹¨Ðµéͧ·Ó¼Ô´¡®ËÁÒÂ
>>> à¾×èÍà»éÒËÁÒÂÊÙ§Êش㹡ÒáӨѴ¤¹ªÑèÇ (»ÃÐÁÒ³ÇèÒ level the playing field)
>>> ¼Á¢ÍàÃÕ¹¶ÒÁ¹Ô´¹Ö§¤ÃѺÇèÒ
>>> ÊÁÁµÔÇèÒ¦Òµ¡Ã¤¹Ë¹Ö触èÒ¤¹µÒÂáµèÃÍ´¤Ø¡ÁÒä´é´éǪèͧâËÇè¢Í§¡®ËÁÒÂ
>>> àÃÒ¨Ðá¡éá¤é¹â´Â¡ÒæèÒ¤¹¤¹¹Ñé¹àͧ (à»éÒËÁÒÂÊÙ§ÊØ´¤×͡ӨѴ¤¹ªÑèÇ áµè¼Ô´¡®ËÁÒÂ) ËÃ×ÍäÁè¤ÃѺ
>>> áÅÐÅͧ¤Ô´´Ù¤ÃѺÇèÒ¶éÒ·Ø¡¤¹·Óàªè¹¹Õé Êѧ¤Á·Õè¨ÐµÒÁÁÒ äÁèãªè ͹ҸԻäµÂ (anarchy) ËÃ×Í?
>>>
>>> ¼ÁáÊ´§¤ÇÒÁàËç¹ã¹àªÔ§ÊÃéÒ§ÊÃäìáÅоÂÒÂÒÁãªéà˵ؼÅà»ç¹ËÅÑ¡
>>> ËÇѧÇèÒ¤§¨ÐäÁèÁÕ¢éͤÇÒÁã¹ÅѡɳзÕè blame ËÃ×Í negatively paint ¼ÁËÃ×ͤ¹Í×蹹ФÃѺ (ÂéÓ
>>> ¤¹Í×è¹´éÇ "separate the people from the problem" ¤ÃѺ)
>>>
>>> ¹Ç¹Ãù :)
>>>
>>>
>>> Angkut Roongsaengjan wrote:
>>>> Respecting in others' opinions and positions is the key and I totally
>>>> respect that. I raised this point at least once here as well. I can feel
>>>> your uneasiness between the lines.
>>>> One thing that I need to advise about the standing point. Everybody, or
>>>> almost, thought that they are in the middle - having good judgment and
>>>> fair. But they find that some others put them to one side. There is
>>>> nobody standing in the middle. Other people don't need to accept that.
>>>> I just say, listen to every sides, read their minds then we can
>>>> distinguish inconsistencies and see their is just one truth that was
>>>> seen from different points of view.
>>>>
>>>> Have a nice day and peacefully see the world goes round.
>>>>
>>>> Nam
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 6:48 AM, Nawanan Theera-Ampornpunt
>>>> <nawanan.rama at gmail.com <mailto:nawanan.rama at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     Do you think it's really "their bad own ego wall" (referring to those in
>>>>     the middle)? Isn't it vice versa?
>>>>
>>>>     I usually hate to jump into the fight, especially when it's worthless
>>>>     and destructive rather than constructive. But I can't take one more
>>>>     blame anymore. People have freedom to think whatever they desire, but
>>>>     they have to RESPECT others' opinions and positions. That's the
>>>>     fundamentals of democracy. If you want to discuss something, please do
>>>>     it in a more academic and constructive way. I'd be happy to learn from
>>>>     different points of views, share what I think, and by this act of
>>>>     democracy, together contribute to our society. But I will not accept any
>>>>     blame that I (or anyone that isn't on your side, for that matter) is
>>>>     stupid, ego-centric, or plain wrong.
>>>>
>>>>     Note that I'm not touching on the stupidity, since bringing up the
>>>>     stupidity argument doesn't help no matter which side you're on.
>>>>
>>>>     An American presidential candidate once said, "There is no liberal
>>>>     America. There is no conservative American. There is, the United States
>>>>     of America." When will all Thais understand that we have more
>>>>     commonalities than differences and unite together and do something that
>>>>     really benefits Thailand. We're all Thais, after all. Come on, grow up
>>>>     intellectually.
>>>>
>>>>     Your reactions to my message above are welcome (but depending on the
>>>>     reactions received, this may be my first and last response).
>>>>
>>>>     Nawanan
>>>>     Man in the middle
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>
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