[TMG] Debate, Not Degrade (Re: [TMG] fwd from nation blog)

[supat at supat.eu.org]

Thank you much for your kind contribution to help.
Please don't worry.
TMG compose of high maturity and patient persons.
Last time, in 1989-91, I am very stubborn than this but TMG still kindly 
patient to me much. This time it was TH crisis so the patient must be 
increased to maximum level.
BUT due to your contribution I will reduce my aggresive down to minimum 
from now.

Thank you.
zxc555
On Sun, 21 Sep 2008, Nawanan Theera-Ampornpunt wrote:

> ¼Áà¾Ô觡ÅѺà¢éÒÁÒ join ä´éÃèÇÁÊÑ»´ÒËìàͧ¤ÃѺ
> äÁèá¹èã¨ÇèÒËÅØ´»ÃÐà´ç¹ÍÐä÷Õè¤Ø³ÊѹµÔ¾Ù´¶Ö§ÍÐäÃ仺éÒ§ËÃ×Íà»ÅèÒ :)
>
> ÍÂèÒ§äáçµÒÁ ÊÔ觷Õè¼Á¾ÂÒÂÒÁ¨Ð·éǧµÔ§ áÅоÂÒÂÒÁ (äÁèÃÙé¨ÐÊÁËÇѧÃÖà»ÅèÒ) ·Õè¨ÐªèÇÂ
> transform ¡Á·. ¨Ò¡¡ÒÃà»ç¹ªØÁª¹ "¾Ç¡à´ÕÂǡѹ"
> áÅÐà»ç¹ÊÒà˵ØãË餹Í×è¹·ÕèÁÕ¤ÇÒÁàËç¹áµ¡µèÒ§ ¶Ù¡¶Ò¡¶Ò§ ´ÙËÁÔè¹
> ËÃ×Íâ¨ÁµÕ¨¹äÁèÍÂÒ¡à¢éÒÁÒÃèÇÁǧʹ·¹Ò¤ÃѺ
>
> »ÃÐà·Èä·Â (áÅÐÊѧ¤Á·Ø¡Êѧ¤Á) ¨Ðà¨ÃÔ­¢Öé¹ÍÕ¡àÂÍÐËÒ¡àÃÒÂÍÁÃѺ¤ÇÒÁàËç¹·ÕèᵡµèÒ§
> áÅÐÂÔ¹´ÕÃѺ¿Ñ§ (ËÃ×ÍÍÒ¨¨Ðà¶Õ§ã¹àªÔ§ËÅÑ¡¡ÒÃËÃ×Íà˵ؼÅ) â´Â focus
> ·ÕèµÑǻѭËÒËÃ×Í»ÃÐà´ç¹·Õè¡ÓÅѧ¶¡à¶Õ§ äÁèãªèµÑǺؤ¤Å áÅмÁËÇѧÇèÒ ¡Á·.
> «Öè§ËÅÒ·èÒ¹à»ç¹¼ÙéãË­èáÅÐÁÕ·Ñé§ÇزÔÀÒÇÐ ¤ÇÒÁÊÒÁÒö áÅлÃÐʺ¡ÒóìÁÒ¡¡ÇèÒ¼ÁÁÒ¡
> ¨ÐÂÍÁÃѺ㹡Òö¡à¶Õ§¡Ñ¹ áÅÐÂÍÁÃѺ㹤ÇÒÁàËç¹·ÕèᵡµèÒ§ (â´ÂäÁè alienate
> ¤¹·ÕèàËç¹äÁèàËÁ×͹àÃÒ) à¾×èÍãËéàÃÒ·Ñé§ËÁ´ (as a whole) àÃÕ¹ÃÙéä»´éÇ¡ѹ áÅÐ "©ÅÒ´¢Öé¹"
> ·Ø¡¤¹¤ÃѺ áÅÐã¹·éÒ·ÕèÊØ´áÅéÇ ¾Ç¡àÃÒ·Ø¡¤¹¡çà»ç¹ members ¢Í§ community áË觹ÕéàËÁ×͹æ
> ¡Ñ¹ ¼èÒ¹à˵ءÒóìÍÐäõèÍÁÔÍÐäÃÁÒ¡ÁÒÂÁÒ´éÇ¡ѹ ¡ÒÃàÍÒàÃ×èͧ¤ÇÒÁàËç¹·ÕèᵡµèÒ§
> à¾Õ§à·èÒà¹Õé ÁÒà»ç¹µÑÇ·ÓãË餹·Õè¤Ô´äÁèàËÁ×͹¡Ñ¹µéͧá¡·Ò§à´Ô¹ËÃ×ÍËź©Ò¡
> ¹èÒàÊÕ´ÒÂâÍ¡ÒÊÍÐäôÕæ ÍÕ¡àÂÍФÃѺ
>
> ¤¹·Õè¤Ô´ÇèÒµÑÇàͧà¡è§¡Ò¨ ÊÔ觷Õèµ¹¤Ô´ËÃ×Í·Ó¹Ñ鹶١àÊÁÍ áµèÊÔ觷Õ褹Í×è¹àËç¹äÁèµÃ§¡Ñºµ¹¹Ñé¹¼Ô´àÊÁÍ
> äÁèÇèÒ¨ÐÁÕ IQ ÁÒ¡à¾Õ§㴠¡çäÁèÁÕ·Ò§ "©ÅÒ´" (wise) ¢Öé¹ ËÃ×Íà¡è§¢Öé¹ä´éËÃÍ¡¤ÃѺ
> à¾ÃÒÐà¢ÒäÁèÃÙé¨Ñ¡ life-long learning áÅÐäÁèÁÕ self-improvement attitude ÍÒ¨¨Ð
> cliche ä»Ë¹èÍ áµè·Ø¡¤¹µéͧ·ÓµÑÇà»ç¹âÍ觷ÕèÂѧÁÕ¹éÓäÁèàµçÁ¤ÃѺ ¼Áàͧ¡çÂѧäÁè¶Ö§à»éÒËÁÒ¹Ñé¹
> à¾ÃÒСçÂѧÁÕ ego µÑÇ¡Ù ¢Í§¡Ù ÍÂÙèàËÁ×͹·Ø¡æ ¤¹ (áÅÐÂÔè§à»ç¹ËÁÍ´éÇÂáÅéÇ ¡çÍÒ¨¨ÐÁÕ ego
> ÁÒ¡¡ÇèÒ¤¹Í×è¹Ë¹èÍÂ.....ËÁÒÂà˵ØÊÑé¹æ ÇèÒ¼ÁËÁÒ¶֧ µÑǼÁàͧ áÅÐËÁÍÊèǹãË­è¹Ð¤ÃѺ äÁèãªè
> individual) áµèËÒ¡·Ø¡¤¹¾ÂÒÂÒÁ·Õè¨ÐÅ´ ego ¢Í§µ¹Å§ ÊÔ觷Õè¨ÐµÒÁÁÒ ¤×Í societal
> benefit ¤ÃѺ
>
> ¼ÁàͧËÒÂ˹éÒ仹ҹ áÅÐäÁèä´é·ÃÒº¤ÇÒÁà»ç¹ä»¢Í§ ¡Á·. ÁÒ 4-5 »ÕàµçÁ
> à¾ÃÒÐÀÒÃÐàÃ×èͧàÃÕ¹áÅзӧҹ·ÕèàÂÍÐÁÒ¡ áµèËÅѧ¨Ò¡·Õèä´éÁÕàÇÅÒà§Õºæ áÅéÇ¡ÅѺà¢éÒÁÒ join
> áÅÐä´é observe ¤ÇÒÁà»ç¹ä»ªèǧÊÑé¹æ ·ÓãËé¼Áä´é perspective ·Ñé§ã¹°Ò¹Ð¤¹¹Í¡
> áÅÐã¹°Ò¹ÐÊÁÒªÔ¡à¡èÒ áÅÐ sense of community
> ¢Í§¼Á·ÓãËé¼ÁÍÂÒ¡¨ÐáÊ´§¤ÇÒÁàËç¹ÍÂèÒ§¢éÒ§µé¹ ºÒ§·èÒ¹ÍÒ¨¨ÐÃÙéÊÖ¡ÇèÒ¤è͹¢éÒ§ strong
> ¢ÍãËéÁͧà¾Õ§ÇèÒ¼Á㹰ҹмÙé¹éÍ ¢ÍÊСԴàµ×͹·Ø¡·èÒ¹ÅСѹ¤ÃѺ Êèǹã¤Ã¨ÐÃѺäÁèÃѺ¡çÊØ´áÅéÇáµè
> áÅмÁ¡çäÁèÁÕÍÐäèÐàÊÕ ËÒ¡ ¡Á·. ¡ÓÅѧÁØè§Ë¹éÒŧà¢Ò¤ÃѺ....ÍÂèÒ§ÁÒ¡¼Á¡ç
> unsubscribe....¤Ó¶ÒÁ·Õè¼ÁÍÂÒ¡¨ÐÊСԴãËé·Ø¡·èÒ¹¤Ô´¡ç¤×Í Would you lose anything if
> the heart of TMG as originally envisioned (and as has been established
> over the years) had been lost?
>
> ·Ø¡¤¹ÁÕÊèǹªèÇ shape ãËé TMG ´Õ¢Öé¹ áÂèŧ ËÃ×ͤ§à´ÔÁ¤ÃѺ...Please do your part...
>
> ¹Ç¹Ãù
>
> Sunti Kit wrote:
>> ¢Í¢Íº¤Ø³ËÁ͹ǹÃó·ÕèãËé¢éͤԴ¡Ñº¾Ç¡¹éÒæáÅÐÅا ÃÇÁ¶Ö§»éÒæáÅÐÍÒæ´éÇ 㹡Ò÷ÕèàÃÒ¾Ù´¡Ñ¹ÍÂÙèã¹Ëéͧ¹Õé ¼Á¤Ô´ÇèÒµÑǼÁàͧ¡çà»ç¹¤¹¨Ø´»ÃСÒÂ(à¾ÅÔ§)´éÇ¡Ò÷Õèà¢Õ¹ÀÒÉÒ·ÕèÍèÒ¹áÅéÇäÁè¤èͨÐà¢éÒ㨠ÍÂèÒ¾Ù´¶Ö§¡ÒÃà¢Õ¹ÀÒÉһСԴáÅéÇ·ÓãË餹Í×è¹ÊÐà·×͹㨠㹤ÃÑ駹Ñé¹¼Áà¢Õ¹ÇèÒ·ÓäÁµéͧÁÒãËéÅÙ¡à¨ç¡ÅÙ¡¨Õ¹ÍÍ¡ÁÒ»¡»éͧªÒµÔ ¼ÁäÁèä´éà¢Õ¹ÇèÒ¤Ó¾Ù´¹Õéà»ç¹¢Í§Ê¹¸Ô àŤÓàËÅèÒ¹Õé¡ÅÒÂÁÒà»ç¹¤Ó¾Ù´¢Í§¼ÁáÅзÓãËé¡ÅѺ¡ÅÒÂà»ç¹áºè§á¡àª×éÍªÒµÔ ¼Áä´é¾Ù´áÅéÇÇèÒà¶Õ§¡Ñ¹´éÇÂà˵ØáÅмŴաÇèÒ·Õè¨Ð·ÐàÅÒСѹẺäÁè¿Ñ§ã¤Ã á¶ÁÂѧáͺÍéÒ§¤Ó¾Ù´Í×è¹æ·Õèà¢Õ¹áÅéÇãËéÍèÒ¹áÅФԴä»ÍաẺ µÑÇÍÂèÒ§¹Ð¤ÃѺ ¶éÒ¼Áà¢Õ¹ÇèÒ ÇÑ´ä·Âã¹´ÑÅÅÒÊ ä´éÃѺà§Ô¹Ê¹ÑºÊ¹Ø¹¨Ò¡¤¹ã¹Ãкº·Ñ¡ÉÔ³ ¼Á¤Ô´ÇèÒÁѹ¡çµéͧ¶Ù¡à¾ÃÒÐÁѹ¨ÐµéͧÁÕÊÑ¡¤¹·Õèà¤ÂºÃÔ¨Ò¡ªèÇÂÁÒáÅéÇ áµèÁѹ·ÓãË餹Í×蹤Դä»ÍաẺ˹Öè§ÍÂèÒ§äÁè¶Ù¡µéͧ ÍÂèÒ¾Ù´¤ÇÒÁ¨ÃÔ§¤ÃÖè§à´ÕÂÇ áÅФ¹Í×è¹äÁèÁÕâÍ¡ÒÈä´éá¡éµÑÇ㹤ӡÅèÒÇËÒ àªè¹áʧáÅÐà§ÒÍÂÙèàº×éͧËÅѧ¡ÒÃà¤Å×è͹äËǢͧ¾Ç¡ ¾¸Á ¼Á¿Ñ§áÅéÇÁѹÊÐà·×͹㨪ͺ¡Å·Ñé§áʧáÅÐà§ÒÁÕâÍ¡ÒÊá¡é¢éÍ¡ÅèÒÇËÒàËÅèÒ¹ÕéËÃ×Íà»ÅèÒ áµè¤¹·Õèä´éÍèÒ¹¡ç¤§¤Ô´ÇèÒà»ç¹¤ÇÒÁ¨ÃÔ§áÅоٴµèÍ仡ѹÃÒǡѺÇèÒÁѹà»ç¹¤Ç
> ÒÁ¨ÃÔ§·ÕèÂ×¹Âѹä´é
>> àÍÒÅФÃѺàÃÒ¤ÇþٴáÅÐâµéáÂ駡ѹ´éÇÂà˵ؼŠáÅÐÊÓËÃѺàÃ×èͧÇÑ´ã¹´ÑÅÅÒʹÑé¹à»ç¹á¤èµÑÇÍÂèÒ§¹Ð¤ÃѺÍÂèÒ¤Ô´ÇèÒà»ç¹¤ÇÒÁ¨ÃÔ§ áµèàÍ ËÃ×ÍÇèÒÁѹà»ç¹àÃ×èͧ¨ÃÔ§
>> ÊѹµÔ
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Nawanan Theera-Ampornpunt" <nawanan.rama at gmail.com>
>> To: "Thai Mailing Group" <thai-l at thai-l.net>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 10:13 AM
>> Subject: [TMG] Debate, Not Degrade (Re: [TMG] fwd from nation blog)
>>
>>
>>> ¢Íº¤Ø³¤ÃѺ
>>>
>>> àËç¹´éǤÃѺÇèÒ¤ÇÒÁ "à»ç¹¡ÅÒ§" (neutrality) à»ç¹ relative term
>>> ¨Ö§¢Öé¹ÍÂÙè¡ÑºÁØÁÁͧ¢Í§áµèÅФ¹ (subjective) áµè·Õè¼Á¡ÅèÒÇÇèÒ "in the middle" ¤×Í
>>> "caught in the middle" ¤×Í äÁèàËç¹´éÇÂáÅÐäÁèʹѺʹع·Ñé§Êͧ½èÒ ÁÒ¡¡ÇèÒ¤ÃѺ
>>> «Öè§äÁèä´é·ÓãËé¼Á "à»ç¹¡ÅÒ§" áµèà¾Õ§á¤èËÁÒ¤ÇÒÁÇèÒ¼ÁäÁèä´éÍÂÙè¢éҧ㴢éҧ˹Ö觤ÃѺ
>>> à¾ÃÒШشÂ×¹¢Í§·Ñé§Êͧ½Ñ觹Ñé¹ extreme (㹤ÇÒÁàËç¹¼Á) áÅÐ rigid
>>> à»ç¹¡ÒÃá¡é»Ñ­ËÒ·ÕèàÍҨشÂ×¹¢Í§µ¹ (position) à»ç¹µÑǵÑé§ ÁÒ¡¡ÇèÒàÍÒ mutual interest
>>> ¢Í§»ÃÐà·Èà»ç¹µÑǵÑé§ (¡ÓÅѧÍèҹ˹ѧÊ×Íà¡èÒá¡èáµèÂѧà»ç¹»Ñ¨¨ØºÑ¹ "Getting to Yes" ÍÂÙè¤ÃѺ:
>>> One of the principles of successful negotiation is to "focus on
>>> interests, not positions")
>>>
>>> ã¹ politics äÁèÇèҢͧ»ÃÐà·ÈËÃ×ÍÊѧ¤Áã´¡çµÒÁ ÊÔ觷Õè¤ÇèÐà»ç¹ËÅÑ¡¡Òþ×é¹°Ò¹¤×Í
>>> compromise for the greater goods ¤ÃѺ
>>> à¾ÃÒÐà»ç¹ä»äÁèä´é·Õè¨ÐËÒ¤¹Êͧ¤¹·ÕèÁÕ¤ÇÒÁàËç¹àËÁ×͹¡Ñ¹·Ø¡ÍÂèÒ§ ´Ñ§¹Ñé¹ ¤¹àÃÒ·Ø¡¤¹
>>> ¨Ö§µéͧà¤Òþã¹ÁØÁÁͧ¢Í§¤¹Í×è¹ áÅÐÃÙé¨Ñ¡ compromise (áÅÐËÂØ´ focus ·Õè position
>>> ÇèÒ·ÓäÁà¢ÒäÁèà¢éÒ¢éÒ§àÃÒ áµè¾ÂÒÂÒÁÁͧÇèÒ·ÓÍÂèÒ§ää¹·ÕèÂ×¹ÍÂÙ褹ÅШش¨ÐËѹ˹éÒà¢éÒËҡѹä´é
>>>
>>> á¹è¹Í¹ÇèÒ compromise ÂèÍÁäÁèãªèÊÔ觷Õèà¢éÒ·Ò§¢Í§áµèÅФ¹àÊÁÍä» ´Ñ§¹Ñé¹ ¤¹ÊèǹãË­è¨Ö§äÁèªÍº
>>> áµèÍÂèÒÅ×ÁÇèÒÊÔ觷ÕèÊӤѭÁÒ¡¡ÇèÒµÑÇàÃÒ (ÍѵµÒ) áÅмŻÃÐ⪹ì¢Í§àÃÒ ¤×Í
>>> ¼Å»ÃÐ⪹ì¢Í§ÊèǹÃÇÁ (public good) ¤ÃѺ
>>>
>>> ·Õè¼Á¾Ù´¶Ö§ compromise ¹Ñé¹ äÁèä´éËÁÒ¶֧½Ñ觾ѹ¸ÁÔµÃÍÂèÒ§à´ÕÂÇ áµèËÁÒ¶֧·Ø¡½èÒÂ
>>> ÃÑ°ºÒÅ¡çµéͧ·Ó˹éÒ·Õè¢Í§µ¹ (¤×Í´Ù`ÃÐ⪹ì¢Í§»ÃÐà·ÈªÒµÔ
>>> ¾Ô·Ñ¡ÉìÃÑ¡ÉÒàÊÒËÅÑ¡¢Í§ºéÒ¹àÁ×ͧ ËÂØ´»¡»éͧ¾Ãä¾Ç¡¢Í§µÑÇàͧ
>>> áÅеéͧÃÙé¨Ñ¡ËѹÁÒ´ÙáÅ»ÃЪҪ¹·Õè¡ÓÅѧà´×Í´Ãé͹àÊÕºéÒ§) ã¹¢³Ðà´ÕÂǡѹ ¾Ñ¹¸ÁÔµÃ
>>> ¡çµéͧÂÍÁÃѺÇèÒ ¡ÒáÃзӺҧÍÂèÒ§¹Ñé¹ ¼Ô´¡®ËÁÒ ÁÕÊèǹ·ÓãËéà¡Ô´¤ÇÒÁÃعáç (ÂéÓ¤ÓÇèÒ ÁÕÊèǹ
>>> ËÃ×Í "contribute" ¤ÃѺ äÁèãªè à»ç¹ÊÒà赯 ËÃ×Í "cause" äÁè§Ñé¹à´ÕëÂǨÐâ¨ÁµÕ¼ÁÍÕ¡)
>>> áÅÐÁÕÊèǹ·ÓãËéà¡Ô´¼ÅàÊÕµèÍàÈÃÉ°¡Ô¨áÅÐÀÒ¾Åѡɳì¢Í§»ÃÐà·È¤ÃѺ
>>>
>>> ÊÓËÃѺ argument ·ÕèÁÑ¡¨Ð¡¢Öé¹ÁÒÍéÒ§ÇèÒ ¨Óà»ç¹¨Ðµéͧ·Ó¼Ô´¡®ËÁÒÂ
>>> à¾×èÍà»éÒËÁÒÂÊÙ§Êش㹡ÒáӨѴ¤¹ªÑèÇ (»ÃÐÁÒ³ÇèÒ level the playing field)
>>> ¼Á¢ÍàÃÕ¹¶ÒÁ¹Ô´¹Ö§¤ÃѺÇèÒ
>>> ÊÁÁµÔÇèÒ¦Òµ¡Ã¤¹Ë¹Ö触èÒ¤¹µÒÂáµèÃÍ´¤Ø¡ÁÒä´é´éǪèͧâËÇè¢Í§¡®ËÁÒÂ
>>> àÃÒ¨Ðá¡éá¤é¹â´Â¡ÒæèÒ¤¹¤¹¹Ñé¹àͧ (à»éÒËÁÒÂÊÙ§ÊØ´¤×͡ӨѴ¤¹ªÑèÇ áµè¼Ô´¡®ËÁÒÂ) ËÃ×ÍäÁè¤ÃѺ
>>> áÅÐÅͧ¤Ô´´Ù¤ÃѺÇèÒ¶éÒ·Ø¡¤¹·Óàªè¹¹Õé Êѧ¤Á·Õè¨ÐµÒÁÁÒ äÁèãªè ͹ҸԻäµÂ (anarchy) ËÃ×Í?
>>>
>>> ¼ÁáÊ´§¤ÇÒÁàËç¹ã¹àªÔ§ÊÃéÒ§ÊÃäìáÅоÂÒÂÒÁãªéà˵ؼÅà»ç¹ËÅÑ¡
>>> ËÇѧÇèÒ¤§¨ÐäÁèÁÕ¢éͤÇÒÁã¹ÅѡɳзÕè blame ËÃ×Í negatively paint ¼ÁËÃ×ͤ¹Í×蹹ФÃѺ (ÂéÓ
>>> ¤¹Í×è¹´éÇ "separate the people from the problem" ¤ÃѺ)
>>>
>>> ¹Ç¹Ãù :)
>>>
>>>
>>> Angkut Roongsaengjan wrote:
>>>> Respecting in others' opinions and positions is the key and I totally
>>>> respect that. I raised this point at least once here as well. I can feel
>>>> your uneasiness between the lines.
>>>> One thing that I need to advise about the standing point. Everybody, or
>>>> almost, thought that they are in the middle - having good judgment and
>>>> fair. But they find that some others put them to one side. There is
>>>> nobody standing in the middle. Other people don't need to accept that.
>>>> I just say, listen to every sides, read their minds then we can
>>>> distinguish inconsistencies and see their is just one truth that was
>>>> seen from different points of view.
>>>>
>>>> Have a nice day and peacefully see the world goes round.
>>>>
>>>> Nam
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 6:48 AM, Nawanan Theera-Ampornpunt
>>>> <nawanan.rama at gmail.com <mailto:nawanan.rama at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     Do you think it's really "their bad own ego wall" (referring to those in
>>>>     the middle)? Isn't it vice versa?
>>>>
>>>>     I usually hate to jump into the fight, especially when it's worthless
>>>>     and destructive rather than constructive. But I can't take one more
>>>>     blame anymore. People have freedom to think whatever they desire, but
>>>>     they have to RESPECT others' opinions and positions. That's the
>>>>     fundamentals of democracy. If you want to discuss something, please do
>>>>     it in a more academic and constructive way. I'd be happy to learn from
>>>>     different points of views, share what I think, and by this act of
>>>>     democracy, together contribute to our society. But I will not accept any
>>>>     blame that I (or anyone that isn't on your side, for that matter) is
>>>>     stupid, ego-centric, or plain wrong.
>>>>
>>>>     Note that I'm not touching on the stupidity, since bringing up the
>>>>     stupidity argument doesn't help no matter which side you're on.
>>>>
>>>>     An American presidential candidate once said, "There is no liberal
>>>>     America. There is no conservative American. There is, the United States
>>>>     of America." When will all Thais understand that we have more
>>>>     commonalities than differences and unite together and do something that
>>>>     really benefits Thailand. We're all Thais, after all. Come on, grow up
>>>>     intellectually.
>>>>
>>>>     Your reactions to my message above are welcome (but depending on the
>>>>     reactions received, this may be my first and last response).
>>>>
>>>>     Nawanan
>>>>     Man in the middle
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Thai-l mailing list
> Thai-l at thai-l.net
> http://thai-l.net/mailman/listinfo/thai-l
>