[TMG] Debate, Not Degrade (Re: [TMG] fwd from nation blog)

[Nawanan Theera-Ampornpunt]

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unsubscribe....¤Ó¶ÒÁ·Õè¼ÁÍÂÒ¡¨ÐÊСԴãËé·Ø¡·èÒ¹¤Ô´¡ç¤×Í Would you lose anything if
the heart of TMG as originally envisioned (and as has been established
over the years) had been lost?

·Ø¡¤¹ÁÕÊèǹªèÇ shape ãËé TMG ´Õ¢Öé¹ áÂèŧ ËÃ×ͤ§à´ÔÁ¤ÃѺ...Please do your part...

¹Ç¹Ãù

Sunti Kit wrote:
> ¢Í¢Íº¤Ø³ËÁ͹ǹÃó·ÕèãËé¢éͤԴ¡Ñº¾Ç¡¹éÒæáÅÐÅا ÃÇÁ¶Ö§»éÒæáÅÐÍÒæ´éÇ 㹡Ò÷ÕèàÃÒ¾Ù´¡Ñ¹ÍÂÙèã¹Ëéͧ¹Õé ¼Á¤Ô´ÇèÒµÑǼÁàͧ¡çà»ç¹¤¹¨Ø´»ÃСÒÂ(à¾ÅÔ§)´éÇ¡Ò÷Õèà¢Õ¹ÀÒÉÒ·ÕèÍèÒ¹áÅéÇäÁè¤èͨÐà¢éÒ㨠ÍÂèÒ¾Ù´¶Ö§¡ÒÃà¢Õ¹ÀÒÉһСԴáÅéÇ·ÓãË餹Í×è¹ÊÐà·×͹㨠㹤ÃÑ駹Ñé¹¼Áà¢Õ¹ÇèÒ·ÓäÁµéͧÁÒãËéÅÙ¡à¨ç¡ÅÙ¡¨Õ¹ÍÍ¡ÁÒ»¡»éͧªÒµÔ ¼ÁäÁèä´éà¢Õ¹ÇèÒ¤Ó¾Ù´¹Õéà»ç¹¢Í§Ê¹¸Ô àŤÓàËÅèÒ¹Õé¡ÅÒÂÁÒà»ç¹¤Ó¾Ù´¢Í§¼ÁáÅзÓãËé¡ÅѺ¡ÅÒÂà»ç¹áºè§á¡àª×éÍªÒµÔ ¼Áä´é¾Ù´áÅéÇÇèÒà¶Õ§¡Ñ¹´éÇÂà˵ØáÅмŴաÇèÒ·Õè¨Ð·ÐàÅÒСѹẺäÁè¿Ñ§ã¤Ã á¶ÁÂѧáͺÍéÒ§¤Ó¾Ù´Í×è¹æ·Õèà¢Õ¹áÅéÇãËéÍèÒ¹áÅФԴä»ÍաẺ µÑÇÍÂèÒ§¹Ð¤ÃѺ ¶éÒ¼Áà¢Õ¹ÇèÒ ÇÑ´ä·Âã¹´ÑÅÅÒÊ ä´éÃѺà§Ô¹Ê¹ÑºÊ¹Ø¹¨Ò¡¤¹ã¹Ãкº·Ñ¡ÉÔ³ ¼Á¤Ô´ÇèÒÁѹ¡çµéͧ¶Ù¡à¾ÃÒÐÁѹ¨ÐµéͧÁÕÊÑ¡¤¹·Õèà¤ÂºÃÔ¨Ò¡ªèÇÂÁÒáÅéÇ áµèÁѹ·ÓãË餹Í×蹤Դä»ÍաẺ˹Öè§ÍÂèÒ§äÁè¶Ù¡µéͧ ÍÂèÒ¾Ù´¤ÇÒÁ¨ÃÔ§¤ÃÖè§à´ÕÂÇ áÅФ¹Í×è¹äÁèÁÕâÍ¡ÒÈä´éá¡éµÑÇ㹤ӡÅèÒÇËÒ àªè¹áʧáÅÐà§ÒÍÂÙèàº×éͧËÅѧ¡ÒÃà¤Å×è͹äËǢͧ¾Ç¡ ¾¸Á ¼Á¿Ñ§áÅéÇÁѹÊÐà·×͹㨪ͺ¡Å·Ñé§áʧáÅÐà§ÒÁÕâÍ¡ÒÊá¡é¢éÍ¡ÅèÒÇËÒàËÅèÒ¹ÕéËÃ×Íà»ÅèÒ áµè¤¹·Õèä´éÍèÒ¹¡ç¤§¤Ô´ÇèÒà»ç¹¤ÇÒÁ¨ÃÔ§áÅоٴµèÍ仡ѹÃÒǡѺÇèÒÁѹà»ç¹¤Ç
ÒÁ¨ÃÔ§·ÕèÂ×¹Âѹä´é
> àÍÒÅФÃѺàÃÒ¤ÇþٴáÅÐâµéáÂ駡ѹ´éÇÂà˵ؼŠáÅÐÊÓËÃѺàÃ×èͧÇÑ´ã¹´ÑÅÅÒʹÑé¹à»ç¹á¤èµÑÇÍÂèÒ§¹Ð¤ÃѺÍÂèÒ¤Ô´ÇèÒà»ç¹¤ÇÒÁ¨ÃÔ§ áµèàÍ ËÃ×ÍÇèÒÁѹà»ç¹àÃ×èͧ¨ÃÔ§
> ÊѹµÔ
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Nawanan Theera-Ampornpunt" <nawanan.rama at gmail.com>
> To: "Thai Mailing Group" <thai-l at thai-l.net>
> Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 10:13 AM
> Subject: [TMG] Debate, Not Degrade (Re: [TMG] fwd from nation blog)
> 
> 
>> ¢Íº¤Ø³¤ÃѺ
>>
>> àËç¹´éǤÃѺÇèÒ¤ÇÒÁ "à»ç¹¡ÅÒ§" (neutrality) à»ç¹ relative term
>> ¨Ö§¢Öé¹ÍÂÙè¡ÑºÁØÁÁͧ¢Í§áµèÅФ¹ (subjective) áµè·Õè¼Á¡ÅèÒÇÇèÒ "in the middle" ¤×Í
>> "caught in the middle" ¤×Í äÁèàËç¹´éÇÂáÅÐäÁèʹѺʹع·Ñé§Êͧ½èÒ ÁÒ¡¡ÇèÒ¤ÃѺ
>> «Öè§äÁèä´é·ÓãËé¼Á "à»ç¹¡ÅÒ§" áµèà¾Õ§á¤èËÁÒ¤ÇÒÁÇèÒ¼ÁäÁèä´éÍÂÙè¢éҧ㴢éҧ˹Ö觤ÃѺ
>> à¾ÃÒШشÂ×¹¢Í§·Ñé§Êͧ½Ñ觹Ñé¹ extreme (㹤ÇÒÁàËç¹¼Á) áÅÐ rigid
>> à»ç¹¡ÒÃá¡é»Ñ­ËÒ·ÕèàÍҨشÂ×¹¢Í§µ¹ (position) à»ç¹µÑǵÑé§ ÁÒ¡¡ÇèÒàÍÒ mutual interest
>> ¢Í§»ÃÐà·Èà»ç¹µÑǵÑé§ (¡ÓÅѧÍèҹ˹ѧÊ×Íà¡èÒá¡èáµèÂѧà»ç¹»Ñ¨¨ØºÑ¹ "Getting to Yes" ÍÂÙè¤ÃѺ:
>> One of the principles of successful negotiation is to "focus on
>> interests, not positions")
>>
>> ã¹ politics äÁèÇèҢͧ»ÃÐà·ÈËÃ×ÍÊѧ¤Áã´¡çµÒÁ ÊÔ觷Õè¤ÇèÐà»ç¹ËÅÑ¡¡Òþ×é¹°Ò¹¤×Í
>> compromise for the greater goods ¤ÃѺ
>> à¾ÃÒÐà»ç¹ä»äÁèä´é·Õè¨ÐËÒ¤¹Êͧ¤¹·ÕèÁÕ¤ÇÒÁàËç¹àËÁ×͹¡Ñ¹·Ø¡ÍÂèÒ§ ´Ñ§¹Ñé¹ ¤¹àÃÒ·Ø¡¤¹
>> ¨Ö§µéͧà¤Òþã¹ÁØÁÁͧ¢Í§¤¹Í×è¹ áÅÐÃÙé¨Ñ¡ compromise (áÅÐËÂØ´ focus ·Õè position
>> ÇèÒ·ÓäÁà¢ÒäÁèà¢éÒ¢éÒ§àÃÒ áµè¾ÂÒÂÒÁÁͧÇèÒ·ÓÍÂèÒ§ää¹·ÕèÂ×¹ÍÂÙ褹ÅШش¨ÐËѹ˹éÒà¢éÒËҡѹä´é
>>
>> á¹è¹Í¹ÇèÒ compromise ÂèÍÁäÁèãªèÊÔ觷Õèà¢éÒ·Ò§¢Í§áµèÅФ¹àÊÁÍä» ´Ñ§¹Ñé¹ ¤¹ÊèǹãË­è¨Ö§äÁèªÍº
>> áµèÍÂèÒÅ×ÁÇèÒÊÔ觷ÕèÊӤѭÁÒ¡¡ÇèÒµÑÇàÃÒ (ÍѵµÒ) áÅмŻÃÐ⪹ì¢Í§àÃÒ ¤×Í
>> ¼Å»ÃÐ⪹ì¢Í§ÊèǹÃÇÁ (public good) ¤ÃѺ
>>
>> ·Õè¼Á¾Ù´¶Ö§ compromise ¹Ñé¹ äÁèä´éËÁÒ¶֧½Ñ觾ѹ¸ÁÔµÃÍÂèÒ§à´ÕÂÇ áµèËÁÒ¶֧·Ø¡½èÒÂ
>> ÃÑ°ºÒÅ¡çµéͧ·Ó˹éÒ·Õè¢Í§µ¹ (¤×Í´Ù`ÃÐ⪹ì¢Í§»ÃÐà·ÈªÒµÔ
>> ¾Ô·Ñ¡ÉìÃÑ¡ÉÒàÊÒËÅÑ¡¢Í§ºéÒ¹àÁ×ͧ ËÂØ´»¡»éͧ¾Ãä¾Ç¡¢Í§µÑÇàͧ
>> áÅеéͧÃÙé¨Ñ¡ËѹÁÒ´ÙáÅ»ÃЪҪ¹·Õè¡ÓÅѧà´×Í´Ãé͹àÊÕºéÒ§) ã¹¢³Ðà´ÕÂǡѹ ¾Ñ¹¸ÁÔµÃ
>> ¡çµéͧÂÍÁÃѺÇèÒ ¡ÒáÃзӺҧÍÂèÒ§¹Ñé¹ ¼Ô´¡®ËÁÒ ÁÕÊèǹ·ÓãËéà¡Ô´¤ÇÒÁÃعáç (ÂéÓ¤ÓÇèÒ ÁÕÊèǹ
>> ËÃ×Í "contribute" ¤ÃѺ äÁèãªè à»ç¹ÊÒà赯 ËÃ×Í "cause" äÁè§Ñé¹à´ÕëÂǨÐâ¨ÁµÕ¼ÁÍÕ¡)
>> áÅÐÁÕÊèǹ·ÓãËéà¡Ô´¼ÅàÊÕµèÍàÈÃÉ°¡Ô¨áÅÐÀÒ¾Åѡɳì¢Í§»ÃÐà·È¤ÃѺ
>>
>> ÊÓËÃѺ argument ·ÕèÁÑ¡¨Ð¡¢Öé¹ÁÒÍéÒ§ÇèÒ ¨Óà»ç¹¨Ðµéͧ·Ó¼Ô´¡®ËÁÒÂ
>> à¾×èÍà»éÒËÁÒÂÊÙ§Êش㹡ÒáӨѴ¤¹ªÑèÇ (»ÃÐÁÒ³ÇèÒ level the playing field)
>> ¼Á¢ÍàÃÕ¹¶ÒÁ¹Ô´¹Ö§¤ÃѺÇèÒ
>> ÊÁÁµÔÇèÒ¦Òµ¡Ã¤¹Ë¹Ö触èÒ¤¹µÒÂáµèÃÍ´¤Ø¡ÁÒä´é´éǪèͧâËÇè¢Í§¡®ËÁÒÂ
>> àÃÒ¨Ðá¡éá¤é¹â´Â¡ÒæèÒ¤¹¤¹¹Ñé¹àͧ (à»éÒËÁÒÂÊÙ§ÊØ´¤×͡ӨѴ¤¹ªÑèÇ áµè¼Ô´¡®ËÁÒÂ) ËÃ×ÍäÁè¤ÃѺ
>> áÅÐÅͧ¤Ô´´Ù¤ÃѺÇèÒ¶éÒ·Ø¡¤¹·Óàªè¹¹Õé Êѧ¤Á·Õè¨ÐµÒÁÁÒ äÁèãªè ͹ҸԻäµÂ (anarchy) ËÃ×Í?
>>
>> ¼ÁáÊ´§¤ÇÒÁàËç¹ã¹àªÔ§ÊÃéÒ§ÊÃäìáÅоÂÒÂÒÁãªéà˵ؼÅà»ç¹ËÅÑ¡
>> ËÇѧÇèÒ¤§¨ÐäÁèÁÕ¢éͤÇÒÁã¹ÅѡɳзÕè blame ËÃ×Í negatively paint ¼ÁËÃ×ͤ¹Í×蹹ФÃѺ (ÂéÓ
>> ¤¹Í×è¹´éÇ "separate the people from the problem" ¤ÃѺ)
>>
>> ¹Ç¹Ãù :)
>>
>>
>> Angkut Roongsaengjan wrote:
>>> Respecting in others' opinions and positions is the key and I totally
>>> respect that. I raised this point at least once here as well. I can feel
>>> your uneasiness between the lines.
>>> One thing that I need to advise about the standing point. Everybody, or
>>> almost, thought that they are in the middle - having good judgment and
>>> fair. But they find that some others put them to one side. There is
>>> nobody standing in the middle. Other people don't need to accept that.
>>> I just say, listen to every sides, read their minds then we can
>>> distinguish inconsistencies and see their is just one truth that was
>>> seen from different points of view.
>>>
>>> Have a nice day and peacefully see the world goes round.
>>>
>>> Nam
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 6:48 AM, Nawanan Theera-Ampornpunt
>>> <nawanan.rama at gmail.com <mailto:nawanan.rama at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Do you think it's really "their bad own ego wall" (referring to those in
>>>     the middle)? Isn't it vice versa?
>>>
>>>     I usually hate to jump into the fight, especially when it's worthless
>>>     and destructive rather than constructive. But I can't take one more
>>>     blame anymore. People have freedom to think whatever they desire, but
>>>     they have to RESPECT others' opinions and positions. That's the
>>>     fundamentals of democracy. If you want to discuss something, please do
>>>     it in a more academic and constructive way. I'd be happy to learn from
>>>     different points of views, share what I think, and by this act of
>>>     democracy, together contribute to our society. But I will not accept any
>>>     blame that I (or anyone that isn't on your side, for that matter) is
>>>     stupid, ego-centric, or plain wrong.
>>>
>>>     Note that I'm not touching on the stupidity, since bringing up the
>>>     stupidity argument doesn't help no matter which side you're on.
>>>
>>>     An American presidential candidate once said, "There is no liberal
>>>     America. There is no conservative American. There is, the United States
>>>     of America." When will all Thais understand that we have more
>>>     commonalities than differences and unite together and do something that
>>>     really benefits Thailand. We're all Thais, after all. Come on, grow up
>>>     intellectually.
>>>
>>>     Your reactions to my message above are welcome (but depending on the
>>>     reactions received, this may be my first and last response).
>>>
>>>     Nawanan
>>>     Man in the middle
>>
>> _______________________________________________